Comments on: TRIZ Certification – why moving towards a standard training structure is a good thing http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/ Learning how to create Market Breakthrough Products through targeted Open Innovation and Networking Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:56:43 +0200 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: john http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/#comment-77 john Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:03:28 +0000 http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/?p=81#comment-77 Hi Ellen, thanks for your comments. I'm trying to think of the needs of companies when I stated the case for structure in certification. What I heard a lot of at TRIZCON was that companies wanted to be able to understand what the overall training programme looked like and to provide their employees with a framework to aid their progression. This sort of structure has worked in 6 Sigma, and maybe helped to encourage the growth of 6 Sigma. Listening to your point, there is the other point that standardising the learning will hold back the advancement of TRIZ and will stop the best and latest tools from being applied. If this were to happen, this would be bad, both for the students and for TRIZ. So, a contradiction in order to provide a framework for learning, TRIZ must have fixed standards vs. in order for TRIZ to develop it must not have fixed standards. One option to break this contradiction is to fix standards for, say, one year and then update the curriculum as new learnings/approaches become available. This would follow practice in other eductational fields (e.g. degree in Mech Eng now is very different from 25 years ago). BTW, if ARIZ 85-C is still the standard then that is very poor indeed and proves your point! In ARIZ terms, I follow the Victor Fey method, which I find works much better. Hi Ellen, thanks for your comments. I’m trying to think of the needs of companies when I stated the case for structure in certification. What I heard a lot of at TRIZCON was that companies wanted to be able to understand what the overall training programme looked like and to provide their employees with a framework to aid their progression. This sort of structure has worked in 6 Sigma, and maybe helped to encourage the growth of 6 Sigma. Listening to your point, there is the other point that standardising the learning will hold back the advancement of TRIZ and will stop the best and latest tools from being applied. If this were to happen, this would be bad, both for the students and for TRIZ. So, a contradiction in order to provide a framework for learning, TRIZ must have fixed standards vs. in order for TRIZ to develop it must not have fixed standards. One option to break this contradiction is to fix standards for, say, one year and then update the curriculum as new learnings/approaches become available. This would follow practice in other eductational fields (e.g. degree in Mech Eng now is very different from 25 years ago). BTW, if ARIZ 85-C is still the standard then that is very poor indeed and proves your point! In ARIZ terms, I follow the Victor Fey method, which I find works much better.

]]> By: Ellen Domb http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/#comment-66 Ellen Domb Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:20:46 +0000 http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/?p=81#comment-66 Hi, John and Andrei and anybody else out there: I'm not at all enthusiastic about uniform standards and certification for TRIZ. Whenever a client wants certificates, I work with them to find out what they want people to be able to DO, and we create a system for them. TRIZ is a living methodology, with continuous improvement happening, both in the methods and in the ways of teaching it. The standards have a strong tendency to freeze the system (right now, ARIZ 85-C is the "standard" and it has been a long time since 85!) Personal bragging--I get lots of people to a level of TRIZ competency in 3 days of training plus project facilitation, in part because I have applied TRIZ to the methods of teaching TRIZ, and improved it. But I teach things in different order than the MATRIZ levels, and for different time periods. I would hate to see TRIZ go back 25 years in order to meet the "standards." Is this a rant? Hi, John and Andrei and anybody else out there: I’m not at all enthusiastic about uniform standards and certification for TRIZ. Whenever a client wants certificates, I work with them to find out what they want people to be able to DO, and we create a system for them.

TRIZ is a living methodology, with continuous improvement happening, both in the methods and in the ways of teaching it. The standards have a strong tendency to freeze the system (right now, ARIZ 85-C is the “standard” and it has been a long time since 85!) Personal bragging–I get lots of people to a level of TRIZ competency in 3 days of training plus project facilitation, in part because I have applied TRIZ to the methods of teaching TRIZ, and improved it. But I teach things in different order than the MATRIZ levels, and for different time periods. I would hate to see TRIZ go back 25 years in order to meet the “standards.”

Is this a rant?

]]> By: john http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/#comment-17 john Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:12:45 +0000 http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/?p=81#comment-17 Hi Andrei, are you suggesting that TRIZ certification starts at level 3 after say 3 weeks plus training per attendee? I can see the logic of not overdoing certification for it's own sake but I guess the bit I liked was that it provided a chance for attendees to gauge their progress even at an early stage. I expect there will be a significant level of attrition through the process because not everyone "gets" TRIZ and so this might support your view on the first two levels beng redundant. In any case, even without formal certification, the MATRIZ training structure helps to manage training time expectation and gives the trainees a structured route to complete their formal TRIZ training which I think is helpful. Hi Andrei, are you suggesting that TRIZ certification starts at level 3 after say 3 weeks plus training per attendee? I can see the logic of not overdoing certification for it’s own sake but I guess the bit I liked was that it provided a chance for attendees to gauge their progress even at an early stage. I expect there will be a significant level of attrition through the process because not everyone “gets” TRIZ and so this might support your view on the first two levels beng redundant. In any case, even without formal certification, the MATRIZ training structure helps to manage training time expectation and gives the trainees a structured route to complete their formal TRIZ training which I think is helpful.

]]> By: Andrei Golidze http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/#comment-14 Andrei Golidze Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:27:05 +0000 http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/?p=81#comment-14 John, I am all for a structure in assessing TRIZ skills. I am also for a meaningful certification of these skills. However, I don't see much utility in MATRIZ's levels 1 and 2 (especially in the former). In my view, such an elaborate (i.e., buearucratic) certification system is redundant. A three-level system (Level 3, Level 4, and Master) would be quite adequate. However, five-level system has an obvious advantage: it allows for collecting more revenues. John, I am all for a structure in assessing TRIZ skills. I am also for a meaningful certification of these skills. However, I don’t see much utility in MATRIZ’s levels 1 and 2 (especially in the former). In my view, such an elaborate (i.e., buearucratic) certification system is redundant. A three-level system (Level 3, Level 4, and Master) would be quite adequate. However, five-level system has an obvious advantage: it allows for collecting more revenues.

]]> By: john http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/#comment-13 john Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:01:01 +0000 http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/?p=81#comment-13 Andrei, I completely agree and actually this is where the levels can really help. I really think it is critical that TRIZ learners are given a structure which manages their expectations and encourages them to develop their skill through a combination of theory and application. I also agree that gettign TRIZ skills to a useful level can take a long time Andrei, I completely agree and actually this is where the levels can really help. I really think it is critical that TRIZ learners are given a structure which manages their expectations and encourages them to develop their skill through a combination of theory and application. I also agree that gettign TRIZ skills to a useful level can take a long time

]]> By: Andrei Golidze http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/index.php/2008/06/23/triz-certification-why-moving-towards-a-standard-training-structure-is-a-good-thing/#comment-11 Andrei Golidze Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:15:25 +0000 http://www.cocatalyst.com/blog/?p=81#comment-11 What "practical experience" can one have at the end of a one- or a two-week class? Many TRIZ tools appear simple, but internalizing them (without which any effective us of them is hardly possible) usually takes much longer than a few weeks. What “practical experience” can one have at the end of a one- or a two-week class? Many TRIZ tools appear simple, but internalizing them (without which any effective us of them is hardly possible) usually takes much longer than a few weeks.

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